Linus Torvalds And Github

Submitted by mudge on 5 September, 2011 - 19:36

Linus Torvalds recently put the Linux kernel on Github as well as his dive log software. Here I asked him how he likes Github and what he thinks about it.

From Linus:

It seems to work well as a hosting place, I'm less impressed with the infrastructure to help "develop" things. It's clearly way too easy to create pointless issue requests, and the "pull requests" seem to be actively designed for somebody who pulls without ever even thinking about what he does - which is against everything I believe in as a project manager.

So from the pull request it's actually hard to see *what* somebody asks you to pull. Together with making it trivial to create commits and pull requests entirely in the browser, I think it's much too easy to do bad-quality requests.

That said, it's working fairly well for the small dive log software I originally put there. For the kernel, I just wish I had a way to disable pull requests entirely, because they are so worthless - even if you disregard any code issues, we just have much higher standards even just for the process of a real kernel pull-request (much more explanation about what the pull contains etc).

That said, I did give them some feedback about the things that really don't work well. So who knows..

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"That said, I did give them some feedback about the things that really don't work well. So who knows."

That pretty much sums it up right there, he gave feedback. It's now up to team GitHub to decide if this is something they want to tackle and if so, how to go about it, perhaps Linus even provided some ideas on the matter at hand.

I don't really care what anyone thinks of Linus; have your own opinion, but you should also be smart enough to know that he wrote both bits of software in question, Linux and Git, as has already been pointed out...

If you cannot recognize the importance of his criticisms from a developers point of view, then you are probably not a very good developer - go back to coloring. If you are not a developer, then why do you even care? On second thought, don't tell me. I don't care.

For all of those complaining about having to coddle someone before delivering honesty, I'm with you. Be concise and don't sugar-coat shit to make it easier to swallow. That takes way too long.

I don't think Linus is a prick in this case, rather on the contrary he is an efficient communicator. If you can't take criticism constructively yet, you need some more quality time in kindergarten.

Impressive derailing in the comments; they were about as pointless as those on newspaper sites.

Yes, I started deleting some of them.

I don't see anything prickish in Linus' comment. Though I have noticed a trend on the web lately where any amount of negativity is construed as prickishness. I don't know if it's the protracted recession, or the broader effects of history's most coddled generation coming of age. In any case, I vow to think only happy thoughts from here on out. Anyone want a hot stone massage?

If you can't adapt to how this guy conveys ideas, then you're an idiot. Linus has a particular manner in which he speaks - if he's hypercritical it's because he's been working on the largest open source operating system and the newest most clever (if not difficult to learn) source control system out there. He is giving good criticism that could be utilized to improve the product; nothing more.

Zack, Linus MADE git, so nothing for him to learn tbh.

I said he was working on (as in developing) not learning.

He might be smart, successful, talented, and a visionary. He is also a prick.

He is the godfather of Linux, and he is good at it. He is also full of himself, and can't even find one nice thing to say about github, despite the facts. We all know github is good, and we all know it works pretty well, and yes, it could use improvement. Its HOW you say it that makes a difference. The difference between being a nice guy and a prick.

github's good enough for him to host the linux project here when he can't have his full-custom setup. Recommendations don't really come much better than that. How much fawning do you think these guys need? Your getting all protective on their behalf is more insulting to them than anything Linus said, or would be if anyone thought you understood the implications. If Linus had sugar-coated it, he'd have been implying they're the ones full of themselves.

>It seems to work well as a hosting place
(dunno how you do quotes in HTML sorry)
He did give some pluses - it's just the type of guy he is to focus more on the negatives because thats what's important. He's just pointing out some issues with author control over projects. Considering the first issue on the kernel issue tracker was (I quote) "Doesn't work with M$ Office", I think his criticism is warranted. Critics != pricks.

This is what bothers me. You have to be coddled before criticism? Today, apparently speaking directly or expressing your concerns requires positive reenforcement and generous foreplay.

He's actively using the software, is that not a good indication of his position? And when given the opportunity, he explicitly states his concerns.

Stop being such pussies.

I would say that Richard Stallman (GNU project) is the godfather of Linux. He's a true visionary. Linus is probably more accurately the father of the Linux kernel. However, Linux would not have come to be without all the work GNU had done first.

I agree. The guy seems to be quite full of himself and doesn't bother to be nice to anybody. Then again, he can be. Exactly like a rock star or any other celebrity.

what you have to know is, he is more than a rock star or celebrity to most of us. without linux, i think ppl would have been stuck with m$ hell. i would have never imagined myself using any of gnu software if i hadn't migrated to linux. not that i think low of gnu software. i just think linux is "the" main part of ecosystem.

if you want to see someone so full of himself...... google "balmer"(even for that he needs google :p). to me, linus, just is a bold, outright person, who wants things to be perfect. if he hadn't been like that, how would we have got the most perfect OS?

can't even find one nice thing to say about github

Funny, because in the article I read, Linus says:

It seems to work well as a hosting place

That sounds like one nice thing about github, and it's the very first thing he says. Everything else he talks about is a qualification about how it could be even better. If providing constructive criticism makes him a prick, the world needs more pricks like him.

Coming from you, I suspect that's a compliment.

Looks like you are a MS spy :-P

He's the godfather of Git, too.

All due respect, nobody has a right be a prick. Not even Linus, I don't care if he was a single-minded visionary transforming the world as we know it.

BUT: If it makes you a prick to be frustrated, than, the majority of the openSource community is or has been a prick at some point. I don't think it does. I think being able to express shortcomings is a sign that you are a consumer interacting with a vendor or service provider. It would be different if Linus had told github to close because they failed to meet perfection on his terms. I just can't imagine Linus doing that.

Absolutely agree with you.

I think you're right that high profile projects will have a harder time with the pull request setup of github, perhaps there should be an option to replace that page with instructions for making a pull request in the way the project requires.. But all in all, most projects that github attracts will benefit more than they lose off the issues manager being a free-for-all.

It might not neccessarily be as bad as it is right now in the long run. The fact that you uploaded linux to github made quite a lot of news sites, which means a lot of people/trolls who would otherwise not have a reason to visit your repository have done. When interest fades down to a bit lower levels, I'd expect the amount of "novelty" pull requests would drop. But it's not as though people abusing the system is an unknown problem.

I'm not sure why any of you think he's being unfair in his comment. Obviously he likes supporting github or he wouldn't use it. It seems fair to wish for features that allow larger(!) projects to be hosted and managed well through the service.

This would ba a total coup if Linus can get Github to add configurations and features to support his needs. If it can work for something like Linux, those features will benefit other large projects like Rails, which is a pain in the ass to follow.

Are these people crying because he does worship github blindly?

Damn kool-aid drinkers, go back to ubuntu or reddit or imgur or twitter or facebook or whatever other garbage you blindly follow.

"Damn kool-aid drinkers,"

What the fuck are you, twelve? Get the hell out.

About cult following, not a reference to his age.

What a badass. If you don't like it just DON'T USE IT.

You obviously don't like his comments, and yet you have thrown in your input and opinion, presumably to help direct the thread in a direction you feel it should be moving. Do you see the irony of what you are saying?

Indeed, and never ever try to improve things either by feedback, constructive criticism or by changing things directly (patches/forking etc.).

In his comment, he only pointed out some things he dislikes about github. As a whole, I read this as "I mostly like github".

It is understandable that large projects attract a large developer community. And with the ease one can create commits/pull-requests on github, a large community automatically means many pull requests. It is only understandable that you'd like to "filter" these requests or disable them completely. Especially for an already established project like the Linux kernel where they already have a proven workflow.

If I were part of the GitHub team, I would be *honored* to welcome Linus to the ranks of the registered users and active developers. He has an enormous experience that most of us can only dream of. And the points he is invoking actually make perfect sense.

Nothing in his post explicitly dissed GitHub as a whole!

No, he isn't.

He has higher standards than the rest of us - and that's fine. I mean, he deals with the Linux kernel - he has to have higher standards than the rest of us lowly developers.

That doesn't change the fact that he's a prick. I think even Linux would acknowledge that he's a prick.

Let me use an analogy...

After being in the business as much as he has been, I am sure that you would have seen plenty of insane, idiotic things. And once you know more about software development, and you see how "easy" it would be to implement something properly, it's easy to get aggravated by such idiocies.

So far, all comments I've seen from him were very insightful. And it is obvious to that he knows what he's talking about. In his comments he speaks his mind. Plainly. Bluntly. But well argumented and mostly proven correct. If, his comments would turn out to be rubbish... *then* you could go ahead and call him a prick... ;)

That guy is a real prick.

So, the guy who decides to host one of the most heavily contributed, popular, and critically important pieces of software in the history of computing somehow is a prick for finding fault in a hosting service that BASES THEIR ENTIRE BUSINESS ON A SOFTWARE THAT LINUS HIMSELF INVENTED.

That's not a prick, that's a guy who wants things done properly.

That guy is one of the best developers in the world. (One of among quite a few others). Therefore, yes, he is a prick and rightly so. He can afford to.
When you'll be able to code at least 1/10th as well as he does, you can be a prick too.
Until then, you have the right to stfu.

People of good character treat others kindly even when they don't have to. Linus is a bit of a bully. It comes across in this and other things he has written.

That guy has every right to be as big of a prick as he wants.

Linus Torvalds And Github

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